Barreuh Label Night #4 @ TAC, Eindhoven

It is always good to do something on your friday night. This friday I went to the Temporary Art Centre in Eindhoven for the fourth label night of Barreuh Records. A label that has found a spot somewhere on the line where art and music touch and get intertwined.

The label aims to release affordable and special products of music that is challenging and experimental. This is available on their quite intriguing label nights, usualy filled with strange happenings. Strange tunes are played in between and a small, but interested crowd gathers for this live experience.

There’s also the release tonight of the new Skymme record, that you can enjoy on bandcamp as well.

First up is the experimental electronics of Rumatov. Three guys molding a mixture of ambient sounds and blipping noise on a range of devices. This creates soundscapes that drone on for the length of the set. The trio manages to put a bit of humor in their preformance of intriguing sounds, that challenge the notiono of what music is.

Barreuh Logo

Danielle Liebeskind is next up, playing a mixture of free-jazz postpunk jams, that frame the poetry of their singer. The explosive music offers a big contrast witht he stammered, flat spoken poetry lines that get spoken into the microphone in between. Though this is an interesting approach, it offers little in the way of harmony between the two elements and the poetry does not really appeal to me. Luckily there’s room for some respite in the cool venue, with some expositions open for visiting.

Final act of the night is Thaumaturgist, offering some bass driven beats. The music sounds old school, without the polished synthy stuff that you’re used to these days. Energetic and raw, the act captivates the audience in what seems to be a long, groovy jam.

Athens: Travel Report

Yes, I’ve returned from this ancient city that gave us democracy, a lot of statues and nightmarish traffic. Athens was a week of seeing and experiencing the city, but also good friends, good times, good food and a lot of laughter.

Traffic

What you notice soon, when visiting Athens, is that the traffic is a nightmare. Not that it’s stuck or slow, it just is totally random. People try to get ahead, slip in between, pass another by and so on in a total random fashion with a certain disregard for life. Usually, this is done while holding a phone or helmet on the arm. Beware of the pizza drivers and the souvlaki delivery guys, they are even more dangerous.

Statue of Zeus or Poseidon
Statue of Zeus or Poseidon

Old stuff

Greece has a lot of old stuff, statues, buildings and such. They take pretty good care of it nowadays and a lot is behind fences or under lock and key in the museums. Some items are weirdly accesible though, like old statues and vases in the archeology museum. You almost feel tempted to touch stuff, like on the Akropolis.

The collections are vast and you will see pieces of art that you probably saw on the cover of a book on ancient history before. The halls may look minimal and in some ways not doing justice to the importance of its contents. In a way that gives the works exactly the attention they need: it is placed at the very centre.

Quite a drive outside of Athens, you’ll find the temple of Poseidon in Sounia. A much more romantic and less visited spot for those who dare to venture there. You follow a road by the sea side for kilometres, facing some moronic traffic to reach this spot. It’s location on a cliff top makes for great sunsets that bring back a feeling of a forgotten past.

Sounia
Sounia

Athens: The City

The city itself is not so filled with ancient history and what is there is carefully preserved. The town itself feels modern and mediterranean. For those willing to see it or learn about it, it is clear that the city tells its own tale of its recent histories. It’s protests all the way back to the Junta government and the conflicts with Turkey or even the independence.

The city is strewn with coffee shops and places where you can buy some souvlaki or other quick meals. Greeks like to eat and they like to get some take-away, particularly on football days.

Roads in Athens are not always of the greatest quality and when it rains, you better put on some rainboots. When the sun shines, that matters little though. If you like cats, you’ll enjoy the city even more, because there are cats everywhere! Also pigeons, which are less loved.

Cats
Cats

Most of all…

The most important thing is the warmth and hospitality I experienced. I stayed with my friend K. who took great care of me during this week. Everyone has been remarkably friendly and that is definitely something that deserves some pointing out.

It was great to hang out with old friends and in a way, finally meet up in this great city, sharing drinks and stories. I hope this won’t be the last time.

"The Angels Of Death", Grombidal, Tyrus, Lovensand and Azdrubael.
“The Angels Of Death”, Grombidal, Tyrus, Lovensand and Azdrubael.

What we see in the media is angry protests, Golden Dawn radicalists and an unwilling government. That is not a story that just started, it is part of how modern Greece formed and shaped and grew in the last century. Protests have always taken place, for weeks sometimes. Golden Dawn is actually a marginal group that I have not seen a single sign of. Greece is a country with a heavy historic heritage, but a traumatic recent past. To understand that, visiting this country is a must.

The Reading of Books #8

Since I seem to be running behind on blogging about books, here the new reading sessions I had.

Cormac McCarthy – Blood Meridian 

Source: Goodreads.com

I think I actually promised Selim Lemouchi to read this book he was so very fond of. I finally did after I bought it a few months ago. This is not a happy book, nor an easy read. It’s a story, where the reader feels detached, dehuminized and lost in a desert where the sun and blood are all that matter. It’s the story of the kid, who goes with a band of ragtag outlaws to collect Apache scalps. When there’s no apaches they murder and maim whatever else comes in their path, looking for riches and excesses. The other figure is the judge, a bald, big man who seems to fulfill a more philosophical role if anything.

The book follows the kid through dark deeds, death and despair, all the way to a grim and confusing ending. People have been trying to analyze this book a lot, but I think it’s a story that works more on a conceptual level. It’s not the actual happenings in it, it’s the ideas that play out, the corrupting effect of power and lawless existence. I truly think this is an amazing book, but I don’t think I’d recommend it to just anyone to be very honest. It’s difficult and leaves you with an uncanny feeling. If you’re up for that, do pick it up.

Thich Nhat Hanh – The Heart of Understanding

Source: Goodreads.com

I’m not what you would call a full-on Buddhist but it has become a huge part of what I consider my spiritual side in the last years.  This book deals with the heart sutra, and like the heart sutra is thus particularly short. Short does not mean simple however, because no matter how clear Nhat Hanh is in his explanations, this is dense material. I also have to add that I greatly enjoyed listening to them.

Learn about the essence of buddhism with slow and deliberate explanations that seem simple but develop into ideas that captivate everything. Also enjoy the wit of this buddhist monk, who reads from this book to an audience and then really seems to get going with examples and jokes in between that keep everything light and open. I don’t think everyone should get into buddhism, but there’s practical lessons in this book that are a welcome thing in most people’s lives.

Paul Rodenko – Nieuwe Griffels, Schone Leien

Source: Nederlandsepoezie.org

I had doubts if I should mention this, since not only is it a book of poetry, it’s a book of dutch poetry. That means, pretty much no one else will be able to read it. I purchased this years ago, after I had my literature classes on the university. This was a significant book, because it truly displayed the revolution in Dutch poetry in the fifties. The new wave, you may say. I felt like I found a little treasure. It took me years to actually read it from cover to cover, but now I finally did.

The poetry in this book is material from the early 20th century up to it’s present day, which was the late fifties. In a way the book turned the free-form poetry into a part of the bigger avant-garde waves. I can’t say I enjoy everything as much to be honest. I’ve got my perennial favorite in the poet Lucebert. Still, it felt like a good thing to finally read it and try to imbibe the atmosphere and feeling of the words. Sometimes, when you read out loud, the words offer you flavors you wouldn’t have expected.

Mikael Bulgakov – Heart of a Dog (adapted BBC audioplay)

Source: Goodreads.com

Bulgakov is a writer everyone seems to love but that I never actually read anything of. So time for that then, so I decided to check out ‘Heart Of  A Dog’, which was kindly adapted to an audio play by the BBC. The piece is funny, but critical of some elements in Soviet society. It offers a lot of points to get into fo rthe reader and freedom for interpretation. The pace is high and the adaptation does a lot of justice to the work of this writer.

Bulgakov is a peculiar figure in Soviet literature, being banned and shunned, but also protected by Stalin (who in turn, personally banned his works). It’s intriguing in itself. This book is a very own version of the Frankenstein story, dealing with a dog who gets intestines of a drunkard that played Balalaika in a club. The dog becomes very human and loses its innocense and purity.

 

Sounds of the Underground #15

Another taste of the Underground with some new music, some unreleased stuff that promises a lot and so on, this time Urfaust, King Woman, Crowbar and Kjeld.

Urfaust – Apparations/Die Erste Levitation 

Source: Metal Archives

I love Urfaust, it’s one of the strangest and most whimsical black metal bands around. Everything about them feels hardcore, unless when you look a bit closer and it becomes a big mockery of black metal traditions. Booze and half arsed German seem to be the overlying themes of their work. Because the album ‘Apparations’ is not out yet, I’d like to look at their latest 7″ and the just released track, titled after the album. ‘Die Erste Levitation’ is a haunting record, that seems to have some oriëntal influences in it (a bit like the mighty OM). The screams are the typical dolorous screams of their singer, while the sounds seem to rattle all around them.

The new track continues that feel of a strange ambient atmosphere, even making me think about the famous ‘Sylvester Anfang’ as used by Mayhem. Wavering rhythms and harrowing vocals are always present, while the song slowly builds up to its crescendo. Is this still black metal? I wonder if it should be called that. There’s a classical or folky atmosphere to it, that moves the duo away from what it originally sounded like. I’m quite excited about hearing the full album, can’t wait for that one.

King Woman – Doubt/’Dove / Fond Affections’ 

Source: thenativesound.limitedrun.com

The most particular thing about King Woman are the vocals, which remind you of either Rabia Shaheen Qazi (as on Earth’s ‘From The Zodiacal Light’) or, as commonly used in reviews, PJ Harvey. Kristina Esfandiari truly carries the sound of this band, formed by languid vocal, doomy drones and spun out riffs. Add to that a dark, gloomy atmosphere that reeks of neo-folk, and you have something quite special brewing here.

Though I’d love to make this all about the forthcoming EP ‘Doubt’, I can’t because it’s not out yet. So luckily one can check some of the previous songs. Only then it becomes clear what a leap the band made in between, they really seem to have found their sound. The poppy, clean sound of their earlier songs definitely doesn’t  live up to the shattering, gloomy impression of this new work. I’m eager to hear the whole thing to be honest.

Crowbar – Symmetry in Black 

Source: Metal Archives

Crowbar has been around forever with their New Orleans sludge, but I’ve never given them much thought. Truth be told, I never gave any band from over there much thought until I started getting into EyeHateGod. The heavy, monolithic sound of the band around Kirk Windstein is quite awesome. Being so heavy, yet so calculated and intelligent is a gift not every band seems to have. Since 1989 the band has been blundering through the musical landscape with their peculiar sound. The pummeling sounds of songs like ‘Walk with Knowledge Wisely’ are impressive and still as convincing as all that time ago.

Clean guitar wailing pierces the sludgy rhythm section for some respite. The sheer brutality of a song like ‘Ageless Decay’ provides a whole other side to the balanced songs you hear. It’s for those that worship the riffs this album provides the tasty bits you need. It always seems to hang near bombastic, but stays earthy and organic. The roaring thunder of Windsteins vocals gives every song the effect of a wrecking ball, if not for the sheer impact of the heavy riffs that is. This album is thoroughly enjoyable and a steady homage to the southern sludge sound. Filled with elements of doom, punk and depressed violence, its one for the road.

Kjeld – Skym 

Source: Metal Archives

While yesterday I struggled to put words to paper (screen..whatever) about the sludgers of Crowbar, today comes brimming with inspiration from my own country with black-metallers Kjeld from the north. They hail from De Wâlden, Fryslân, and their debut sounds like the finest majestic stuff from the north with grim battle-readiness. The sheer brutality of the blastbeats is overwhelming, but the band continually maintains a melodic structure in their songs. Filled with great passages and captivating sections of intensity, this is one hell of a record.

Songs like ‘Brek En Bran’ are hectic and wild, hardly easy to follow for a casual listener. ‘Stoarm’ feels like an actual storm, raging around you but following patterns, slowly descending to a short calm before launching once more to the heavens. On closer ‘Bern Fan Freya’ we can hear an outro that adds to the mythical elements in their music, the attention to atmosphere and feeling for the listener. A few times the band shows this side, the capacity to maximize on the minimal, like the break in ‘Gerlofs Donia’. This band is the kind that keeps proving to me that black metal is alive and kicking.

Stream the whole album here.

Romuvos Interview

Romuvos is the kind of band you will find only when you start looking for it. Pagan metal, inspired by the ancient Baltic tribes that roamed the lands we now know on our maps as Lithuania and Latvia. One could include the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, though the Prussian Balts are long extinct.

Behind the band is one person who goes by the name Velnias, which is Lithuanian for Devil. Most pagan entities seem to have been taken over by devils, which is shown in the Žmuidzinavičius museum in Kaunas by a large collection of statues. If we look a bit further the name Velnias is taken from the Baltic god of the dead, similar to Odin in Norse mythology. A trickster of sorts, one could say.

I got in touch with Velnias and he was keen to tell us more about his music. Like the trickster he took his name from, there’s more to him than you would think. He doesn’t actually live in the Baltic region, but lives in Israel. He moved there as a child with his family and once in a while he returns to his beloved Lithuania. Because his father is Latvian, he has decided to represent in his music the Baltic tribes as a whole in their pre-Christian form. It’s only fitting then, that I write down these words in the heart of Samogitia, the last pagans to be conquered in Europe back in 1413.

Though Lithuania seems strongly Christian now, not surprising due to their long lasting union with devout Poland in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, there are still plenty of traditions and customs here that remind you of a pagan past and the deep roots they have in both the people and the land. Velnias longs to move back to his beloved country, but feels like the viking warriors who got stranded in far of lands. But one day perhaps, he will return.

Who is Romuvos and how did you get started with this act?

Romuvos is my one man band, the operation is entirely in my hands. I started playing folk music after being part of various black metal projects. I started digging deeper for my roots and the folklore that I hold so dear and decided to dedicate a musical project to it.

Romuvos is music dedicated to the Baltic pagan traditions and way of life. It has always been in my heart, but only now I’ve come to the point where I express it in song. Thus Romuvos was created, a name that refers to reviving the religious practices and pagan traditions of the Lithuanians and Baltic people before their Christianization.

Did you play in other bands before Romuvos?

 Yep, though its nothing worth mentioning. Nothing that got into thte studio or anything. Every band I played in had many rehearsals, worked on songs for a long time until it was time to record and then split up. Most of those were black metal bands with folk influences.

I’m not sure if this is interesting to mention, but I fought in the Israeli army. I fought wars and most of this music I wrote under threat of missiles and bombs. I’m not saying I’m a warrior of old or some brave knight, but I experienced war. Those were not my battles to fight though, not my wars. That however is a different story altogether.

Picture: Lithuanian Devils Museum 'Two very recognizable devils'
Picture: Lithuanian Devils Museum ‘Two very recognizable devils’

Romuvos is clearly a reference to the pagan religion of Lithuania. Can you tell a bit more about what it entails and also the Durwi spin-off?

Well, Romuva is a way of life, tradition and belief. It’s rooted in every Lithuanian heart and deep in the history of the Lithuanian people. Romuva is the name of the most important sanctuary of the Prussians, which was destroyed by crusaders in the 13th century.

One of the most important aspects in the Romuva faith is respect for nature. There are many gods, rituals and festivals that take place and form a part of the yearly calender in the tradition. Many old folksongs teach us about the ways of the Romuva and pagan people fromt he past. Those are the Dainos (folk songs), which play an important role in the religion. They are ancient songs and hymns. There’s so much to tell you about this, fortunately the internet offers much resources for the audience to find out more about this. Im very proud to let people know about our Romuva traditions in my music.

Durwi in old Prussian means faith, its also a revival of the Baltic ancient religions. You can csee how the Lithauanians and other Baltic tribes are untill this very day connected to their traditions and pagan beliefs from before their christianization. I hope the movement will grow and get stronger.

Can you tell a bit more about these traditions, what would these be like?

The Baltic people have preserved their traditions through the ages and Romuva is a direct expression of these unique traditions. It gives a name to the folklore and beliefs that have existed for a long time in the region. I will give you some examples

Krikštas

This refers to the rituals surrounding birth. Before a child was born, the ancient Lithuanians believed in spirits that would influence the unborn child in a bad way. One never directly referred to someone being pregnant to safeguard the mother and the future child. Expressions are still being used in Lithuania, like “The oven fell apart at Petras” or “It’s joyfull at Antanas”.

Once the child was born, it would be inducted into the community. The christening was bound up with various ancient rituals, which tie the new-born to the world, his family and community. These would be performed either at home or in nature when it is the time of the full moon. The room would be decorated with plants and greenery, birds made of straw would be hung from the ceiling and in the middle of the room the hearth would be lit at all time during the ritual. Other materials were prepaired, a bowl of water, clean cloth and scissors. The room would be well lit with candles. In the ritual the mother, father, child, name-givers, relatives and other childern would be present, together with the priestess  – Pribuveja (midwife), who would guide the event and take care of the child

The child is dressed in a festive linen shirt. A sash woven with folk decorations is used as a waist-band.

The feast is a cake, brought by the name-givers. The food upon the table traditionally includes eggs, scrambled eggs, bread, cheese, beer and such. Gifts are brought to the new-born and the mother. It’s all part of this important moment.

Picture: Lithuanian coast of inner-lake near Nida
Picture: Lithuanian coast of inner-lake near Nida

Vestuves

Vestuves is the word for a wedding, which was not just the concern for the young lovers. The entire community had an interest in the marriage and joining in the celebration. Weddings are so important in the ancient taditions, that there were over 100.000 dainos (songs) for Lithuanian weddings. There’s an extensive set of dances that represent the wedding  – starting with the match maker introducing the young couple to each other, the parents agreeing, the young bride weaving her trousseau, and then the wedding ceremony.

There’s a myth of Perkūnas and the Heavenly Wedding: On his way to the wedding, Perkūnas strikes a gold oak – an exorcism to repel evil spirits (Velnias frequently hides under the roots of an oak). When a young bridal couple comes into their new home, before they enter it, the lintel is struck, leaving a “cross” – to ward off evil.

Laidotuves

Funeral/Burial – the traditions surrounding funerals are fairly standard the world over. It is a time of mourning, and of friends gathering in support of the grieving family. But, there are some differences. In villages the coffin would lie in “state” for approximately 6 days, and in cities about 2 days. Every evening there would be the singing of laments, and prayers for the dead members of the family for three generations – each one mentioned by name. Every evening after the prayers a funeral meal is served, prepared by the best cook in the community. If the family has a pig, it is slaughtered for the occasion.

In villages the dead are usually buried in the morning, with final kisses being bestowed upon the loved one.

Velnias has given much more info on the pagan traditions in ancient Lithuania. For the sake of readability, you will find these at the bottom of this article. He mentions the yearly calendar, essential in the pagan rites, and the deities that the ancient Balts worshipped. One deity he goes into very elaborately, which I’m glad he did: Velnias.

In Lithuanian folklore Velnias is the character you will find most often, he originates from the god Velnias or Velinas. He has a relation to the animals, underworld, the dead, economy and magical things. In later Christian times Velnias became the devil.

The folkloric devil in the ethnic legends creates the world together, either alone or with God or only God (there are different versions). God is in some traditions his brother. They both have the same goals in creating the world, but also some opposingones, mainly all the bad things are explained by interference of Velnias. The God creates useful animals and the devil creates ones that harm people and are useless. Velnias is also connected with horses, oxen and cows, of which he would keep herds. In the legends he often harnasses and rides the horses. From the wild life, the wolf, rabbit and bear are closest to him and he assumes their forms.

Velnias is associated with low and wet locations, like moors and lakes, or he may appear in the forest. His dwelling is under the earth, inside the mountain, behind the water. He also may appear in the sky, flying or seen in a storm. The relation between Velnias and treesis also emphasized, he might be found sitting on tree stumps (the reference to the chtonic world, the lower part of the Tree of the World) or hiding in trees (like he hid from Perkunas). The fir tree and birch tree are his trees.

Velnias, also in later times as the devil, would often appears amongst women (at the village parties devils dance with the village girls or the devil would celebrate a wedding with a hanged woman and dances with her) and, in general, he is interested in the weddings and funerals. He often appears when a person dies to take his soul. The devil under the influence of christianity becomes the ruler of the hell (in lith. “pekla”) and there he rules the dead mostly in shape of the animals.

Generally Velnias is close to humans, it is not difficult to find him or call him he also comes without any invitation, let’s say if people decide to play ripka or other games. He often offers his services in farming, to clear the field and such. The manifestations of the devil have a sense of music, often they contract a violinist, play musical instruments themselves and dance. Both life and death are under the jurisdiction of the devil. He is an intermediary or guide for the living, but also was involved with the fertility of people and the land. The harvest was also his. He is inbetween the world of the living and the dead, between earth and the underworld. Therefor he received the patronage of the people who are connected to the both parts of this worlds (i.e. priests, magicians etc). Also, musicians, poets and artists, who are inspired by both worlds fall under this patronage, as they are set in an old Indo-European tradition that associates them with magic and the devil.

What are your personal beliefs when it comes to these traditions?

I can say that my beliefs are very similar to the beliefs of my ancient forefathers. It relies mostly on the pagan past, but I have to say that I walk my own path in this and I walk that alone. I am much influenced by the Romuva. The paganism is a big part of my life, but I follow the path I feel is right to take. I don’t want to impose chains on my life, that are in the hands of another. I will find the truth that is out there for me, which will bring me closer to enlightenment.

I appreciate nature and the pagan religion embraces those elements with deities that are the key to harmony or chaos in what surrounds us as humans. I tyr to represent that in my music, though in a smaller scale. When I use the word pagan in relation to my beliefs, my view is very much connected to those ideas that are part of the pagan traditions. I participated in rituals in the past, spending nights outdoors, camping and having a fire, getting inspired by the sound of the fauna and earth that I feel when I’m out there alone or with my wife. I try to put those experiences in my music, those are they keys or muses for the atmosphere I try to invoke.

I have mentioned my interest in the Baltic history and that is a big part of my music. It’s something I grew up with, the tales told by my grandmother, the sculptures and paintings in my childhoods home. Those inspired me since the day I was born. When I put this to song, the subject is a bit more general and I try to make it larger than life.

Lithuania is now one of the most devout Christian countries in Europe, though the pagan traditions can still be seen in a slightly mutated form. How do you feel about that?

Well, I think we can all agree that Christianity and other missionary religions have utterly destroyed native cultures around the world. I don’t hold any hatred towards them, but I draw strenght from this, deep emotions I can put in my music. Each religion seems to face the same stages and now the Islam has come to a point where people commit atrocities in its name. It led me to believing that one should shy away from crowds and mobs of people. I’m not a misanthrophist, but it gets close to becoming one. I like to be outdoors more nowadays, groups of people make me claustrofobic.

Many bands that pay homage to culture or country get lumped into the NSBM category rather easily. How do you feel about that and is there any political side to Romuvos?

I have no political views, nor do I think people are entitled to express such extreme political ideas as metal heads tend to do these days. Yes, everyone is born and living in a ‘country’, which we consider to be ours. That we think will stand by us and have our back when we need something. That country has been formed by past rulers and is governed by whatever government it currently has. They also have taught us to be proud of it and stand by its laws and order. Well, that is not for me. I can understand and respect other opinions about this topic, to each their own, but that crosses a border when people try to hurt or offend another.

The way I see it, I have no country. I don’t look at it that way atleast, which might be because I left my ‘homeland’ or maybe because I dont hold a vision like the common herd. Therefor I won’t see a country as a value to stand for. Countrys are owned by their governments, which might even be corrupt, and filled with people I can’t call my brothers, yet I would be expected to stand by it in war. The same people that will curse, violate, interfere with and disrespect you while living next to you, while sharing the land you should call ‘ours’ with them.

Yes, I will seek peace in my lasnd and I have the right as a human being to live on such a piece of land that I call home. I will raise a family and will seek friends, but also defend it from foes, but not as an act related to an old ideology and herd mentality that is alient o mine. I would do it as a person who wishes to be left alone by the brainwashing of society that surrounds him. I try to be free in my own space and accept no shackles from others forced on me. So NSBM? No, thats not for me. I would also not like to live in the old days under a man with a crown who can decide my fate, whitout me having any say in it. I dislike the ‘nazi’ ideas and steer clear of them. If others go there, its their choice.

Why did you chose to make music on your own?

I can’t say that I consciously made a choice to make music on my own. Because most bands I was part of ended up splitting up or just fading away, this was the easiest wat to go about things for me. I create music on my own terms, with my visions and no distractions.

Do you plan to play live? How would you go about forming a band?

Yes, I think that in the future I will gather few session musicians that I will play live shows with. Musically I will keep things in my own hands though.

Picture: Lithuanian landscapes
Picture: Lithuanian landscapes

What is the general idea you try to get across to your listeners? What story are you trying to tell?

In some of the songs I tell stories from the Lithuanian folklore, in others I make up a story myself based on my ideas. Sometimes I will use old folk songs from the old days, other times I will write songs that represent Baltic faith and traditions. With Romuvos I wish to represent Baltic history and the pagan beliefs of the people in close relation to the nature.

Your record has a very clear sound that is not typical.  What inspired you to make this style of music? To mind comes a band like Glittertind, does that sound like a fair comparison?

Well, Glittertind is a great band and thanks for the comparison though they are not my main inspiration. I can say that Falkenbach is a big influence and one of my favorite artists for sure, Summoning, early Vintersorg, Storm, Hades, viking era of Bathory and few more…

Even today I mainly listen to black metal, it still is my favorite style of music. Obviously, it is not the sound I create in Romuvos, but that was never my goal.

How did you go about recording this record? How did your writing proces go? All in all, how did you make ‘Romuvan Dainas’?

I have my own studio at home, so I just go and write the music first. Then I take a classic guitar and start playing, sometimes it can start with keboards or electric guitar as well as for the harmonica. Either way, after writing the main theme, i start working around it and build up the entire song. The next step is writing the lyrics and few more adjustments for the song. Ivecord all on my own and when the recording part is done, I mix it and finally do the mastering as well.

What is the general idea behind the record, its story and message?

The idea behind Romuvan Dainas is to make a Baltic folk metal album. In some of the songs you can find old stories from the Baltic folklore and on others tales of heroic battles and myth that I mostly invented. I dont get to see these days many folk bands representing this great area that surrounds the baltic sea and I am happy to take that subject into my music.

You say you invented some stories. Do you feel you put a lot into this record emotionally?

I think I put a lot of emotion and care into my music, it’s as if it erupts out of me and when it does I cannot stop it. I invest a lot of time and effort in it, because I have no other way of doing it. I enjoy every moment of making music, it is a very fulfilling thing to do. When I finish one thing, my mind is already on the next creation.

You released the record through No Colours Records. What kind of label are they and how did you get in touch?

No Colours Records  are a label that mainly releases underground Black Metal music, They have some releases that made it to the big pantheon. I just sent a youtube link with a song to Steffen, the AR of the label, and after few weeks he came back to me, expressing a great desire to put out my album.

What are, in your opinion, the best metal bands from Lithuania and are you in any way in touch with either the scene in Lithuania or Israel?

There’s a few great bands from Lithuania, like Obtest, Ha Lela, Peorth and Žalvarinis (though they are not that metal). There are also some great folk bands, like Rasa Serra, Gyvata and Ugniavijas. I’m not connected to any scene at the moment though.

A few people from the Baltics did buy the album and asked me some questions about it. It’s important to me that they feel connected to my music, but that goes for anyone who listens to my songs. I’m not trying to reach a specific audience or region with my music, but it is a confirmation for me when people from the region and cultural background appreciate the music though. It shows that my message of longing for the Baltic area and its nature and history is clear.

What future plans do you have?

I am planning to get session musicians for recording in a a big and high quality studio for my upcoming albums and live shows. Hope mainly to just make great albums!

 Disclaimer: I share no views with No Colours Records or any of the artists. Pictures (except header) by Justina Lukosiute

 Originally published on Wyrd’s Flight

 

 

Don’t Be A Dick P. II:Games and why being a dick ruins them

How to explain a theory on general behaviour that is based on games in a way that makes sense, while being fun at the same time? I don’t know, how about games?

I will attempt to transfer game situations to real life situations and explain why being a dick ruins things for you and for the other.

PvE (Player vs Environment)

Source: Joystiq.com

In games where you play PvE (Player vs Environment) you basically can not do that much harm, unless it concerns a multiplayer mode. I used to play some silly game with my brothers where you go through a maze with your avatar and shoot monsters. You could also shoot eachother, by accident or on purpose, not that it had any positive effect on the game if you did, just negative. Now, one of my brothers thought it was hilarious to kill you, when playing together. One time is funny, after that it starts getting quite dickish. It takes the whole fun out of trying to make an achievement.

Now, another example can be the MMO. I used to play WoW in a quasi-hardcore way (oh yes, we sucked), meaning 10 and 20 player raids. So often, when a big boss was defeated an item would drop that multiple players desired. Guild leaders (a  guild would back in the day form the core of how you would get together 20 dudes on a monday night), would try all sorts of systems to sort this out fairly. Still people would start insulting the player that would receive the item and just quit the guild or leave the raid group at its critical stage. It sucks not to get the item you want, obviously. That’s why there are pre-made arrangements for those, so everyone gets their share. Ignoring that is immature and also…well, being a dick.

Basically, you ruined the game for everyone, just because you couldn’t just ‘not be a dick’. Due to the game mechanics, this raid is probably over and everyone can get back to whatever else they were doing… like, reading a book….

An MMO where you play PVE is all about teamwork. Teamwork is very recognizable in any situation where you work in a team to achieve a bigger goal. The choice for a team is necessary, but you might have that one guy that refuses to budge. Everyone needs to put in something to make this project succeed, but not him because of reasons. This person will continue to frustrate your project and take all the fun out of it. You might still finnish it, like the WoW raid, but it’s much harder and much less fun.

You can be a dick in all sorts of minimal ways. Imagine, you just didn’t do your bit. It was too hard or there was another reason why you couldn’t make time for it. Now, that does not make you a dick. The way you handle it can though. Be open and honest, ask for understanding and peace be with you. Be a dick and blame everyone else or point to others and there you go!

Be nice = get epics!

PvP (Player versus Player)

PvP

You would think that it is almost logical that being a dick ruins a PvP (Player vs Player) game, but it really is a bit more complex than that. Sure, being an utter dick ruins it, but being all kind and cuddly doesn’t cut it in PvP either, because you’ll die… (which according to some research actually hurts you, somewhere deep inside).  Healthy competition, playing hard, a bit of tactical trickery and such, it’s all part of the game. In a way, it’s fair to say that all is fair in love and war and PvP, but there’s a limit to that. If you’re being mean for the sake of being mean, then it serves no tactical use, you’re just being a dick. A good example is a pest in hockey.

In PvP it’s rarely all for themselves, it’s usually one for all and all  for one. Think of a battleground in WoW, like Warsong Gulch, Alterac Valley or Arathi Basin. You can’t win if you don’t co-operate. Sure you can get ranked the highest on your own, but what is that without the sweet taste of victory? Not much, rewardwise…  There’s no point in capturing the flag in Warsong Gulch and then running while 10 opposing players try to kill you, you need others to defend you and vice versa. Capturing resources in Arathi is great, but yields little if the opponent captures yours at the same time. I can go on about this, but I think the point is clear. There is no I in team and all.

On the workfloor or in your personal life, this works out in various ways. In some sense you are always able to go for personal glory, but whenever that comes by pushing someone else down or throwing another under the bus, it’s not the constructive sort of progress. Working WITH others is always easier than working AGAINST them. Obviously there are opponents, but those are the competition of your company and even with those you can better try to be on good terms. Sure, in one of the earlier mentioned battlegrounds you have an enemy, but that enemy becomes nothing else than the obstacles towards your final goals. In Real Life PvP, working together can help you overcome all sorts of stuff. On your own, you are all you can rely on and that might be very little when you wish to build something larger than life.

In many ways it sounds a lot the same as PvE, but don’t forget that in this case there is glory for those who work alone as well. If you can’t work together on, say a software development project, then you can still get credit for doing your part. Your part will be worth hardly anything though, but atleast you get of looking a bit less bad.  By not being a dick and going for yourself, you can get shit done. It does require some maturity and the ability to put the team ahead of the self.

RP (Role Playing)

When I play WoW, I rarely feel like I’m fully myself in there. I’m playing as a night elf hunter or a gnome warrior, I’m that character and the more social interaction I’ve had with the character, the more specific characteristics it develops.  My warrior is loud and boisterous, mainly because he’s also very small for example. We all roleplay in some way and if you like you can actually join a roleplay server and start roleplaying in Warcraft. There are many games where this is part of what you do, even table-top game Munchkin (ok, let’s not discuss what is and what is not a table-top game) requires some character building and ways of playing. It makes it fun, it makes you able to be what you need to be to achieve goals. If you want to ruin it for everyone, than you break character or you stop playing by the rules. If you don’t obey the rules, you mess up the game for those playing.

Source: Joystiq.com

In real life, this is much more severe. We play roles constantly in the situations we find ourselves in, we adapt to new social structures and try to stick to the rules. If I would behave at work, like I would when I go out, people would think I’m an idiot. It would not fit in the role I have at work. We all do some sort of role playing, otherwise we wouldnt be able to play the daily game we play. Its a dense structure of hierarchies, interactions, codes and ways of conduct that instantly get broken if someone doesn’t play by his or her role. The whole integrity of a team breaks up when one member is playing manager, while thats another one’s role. Like a raid in World of Warcraft, everyone follows their own role, if not, everybody dies.

I mean, it makes you untrustworthy if you don’t stick to role patterns, consistency is what makes you reliable. If you are unable to take the role you have been given, you’d end up the village fool. You don’t want that right.

Conclusion

All may be fair in love, war and the daily game, but not working with others, not playing fair or just being a dick that doesn’t stick to the codes of conduct just messes up the game for everyone. On top of that, it can really make things impossible for yourself so please, don’t be a dick and treat others the way you would want to be treated (or better) and focus on the roles, not the little things that bug you.

Life is a battleground and the most kills count for nothing if there’s no team win.

Next time, I’ll try another game element. Cuz you know, games are like Real Life.

The Reading of Books #7

Another series of books have been read, this time Louis Theroux, Bertrand Russell, Isaiah Berlin and one of the Warcraft books by Richard A. Knaak.

Louis Theroux – Call of the Weird

I’ve loved the docu-reports of Theroux, visiting weirdos all over the place. What I did not experience as yet is a particularly personal touch to all that. In this book Theroux describes his return to a numver of these individuals and groups, like neo-nazis, porn actors, UFO believers and gangsta rappers. This time only armed with a laptop, it’s a  quest for understanding and connection with the individuals he met during his journeys. In some cases getting closer, in others just running into brick walls.

It’s most surprising how Theroux makes people open up and be vulnerable. In writing he is more honest and sincere then when he was in front of the camera. He writes from a personal perspective, which makes it easier to relate to his writings and find understanding for the weirdos he meets with. This book is a must for those who watched the show and who wonder what became of the figures you came across back then. Some will surprise you quite a bit, some stories are new and shocking.

Bertrand Russell – A History of Western Philosophy

Bust of Russell, source: Wikipedia

I will admit that it took me forever to finish this book, which is, obviously about philosophy. This is probably the book that helped Russell get his Nobel Prize and pretty much how he was certain of enough income for the latter part of his life. It has been critisized a lot, but that is hardly surprising, seeing it embodies a whole history on its own. Some parts are totally clear and others, like the bit on Bergson, are very incomprehensible. What is so strong about this book, is that it makes the otherwise dour topic rather witty. In fact, Russell does not shy away from making jokes.

“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” – Bertrand Russell

Why did I read this book? I have to ask myself that question, since I really started it more than 2 years ago. I listened to it, because it was clear cut, interesting and filled with a wealth of inspiration. It’s hard to understand every philosopher, but it helps to have it buried somewhere in your mind. Apart from that, I must admit that I find a certain joy in struggling with the problems they created, the philosophers, and following their footsteps towards solutions. If that is in any way your thing too, I recommend reading this bulky masterpiece.

Isaiah Berlin – The Crooked Timber of Humanity

Source: Goodreads.com

Berlin is one of the writers I have always felt opposed to untill recently. I started getting intrigued by him due to trying to understand the tradition of counter-enlightenment. Stating that Berlin is a full on part of that, would be false. He does however, offer genuinely philosophical arguments considering problems in the tradition that currently seems to be the prevailing one in the West. In this book a collection of essays and shorter articles tells us about the not so perfect state of humanity and how we try to make the best of it with often faulty, though lofty ideals.

The density and clarity (the combination is the refined brilliance that needs to be mentioned here) of Berlins writing makes me an instant fan of his philosophical writing. Not only is Berlin very clear and cohesive, he also does not shy away from being witty from time to time, which is essential in keeping someones attention peeled for a whole book. His insights have helped me develop new ones and that is the greatest gift a book can give you in my humble opinion. I salute this writer and if I ever pen down one article as brilliant as his, I will be happy.

Richard A. Knaak – Wolfheart

Source: Goodreads.com

Yes, also during this month some pulpy reading took place with a new Warcraft book about king Varian Wrynn. The book ties up some old stories, like the War of Ancients trilogy and Warcraft III. Knaak is a brilliant writer and has been responsible for most of the Warcraft books, or so it feels like. He writes lively characters, with insecurities and flaws and thus creates a debt that in-game you hardly find and that separates the fans from… well, the rest.

source: Galleryhip.com

Also the Worgen start making sense, where I had some issues with the inclusion of a werewolf race at first. It now seems like a brilliant twist to add a race without an actual homeland and thus bringing back good old Gilneas to the fold. The character of Genn Greymane still lacks a bit of debt in my eyes and could really do with some bolstering, but then again, I have not read all books as yet. Varian Wrynn is becoming a nice counterpart of The Horde’s ‘Green Jesus’ Thrall, which is good but should not be the same mistake as before. I am a bit bummed that Maiev turns out to be such a twat. The return of her brother Jarod Shadowsong was more than welcome though. There is also the danger of making Malfurion and Tyrande the mommy and daddy of the alliance, which would suck a bit too. Both have a bit more fury in them then Knaak shows in this book.

 

Blush @ Glaspaviljoen

Ok, wow, so I went to see a short performance of the group Blush at the neighbours yesterday during the yearly Stukafest. During Stukafest bands and groups will perform in student rooms and in this case in the Pavillion build next to my window.

I was astonished by the powerful act of three men, who blend imageries, gender and conceptions of sexuality in a pounding, shocking and devastating act with sound-samples, loud beats and crawling ambient atmosphere. Lights provide an even intenser look at the three. This video gives  a slight impression of the show.

I was quite overwhelmed. In a way, both men and women get completely dehuminized in this act that reduces people to objects for lust. The fact that it’s three guys doing it, makes it even more powerful in my opinion. They are very convincing and when they stare you in the eyes, you can’t help but look away. The act is a mix between performance art and dance, executed to perfection with a whole lot of art and I recommend seeing it if you can.

Sexuality is something that should be fun, nice and good, but in this current world it is too often reduced to a product, a commodity. Gender-patterns are still as rigid as they ever where. This performance made me hope that the world is finally turning a corner and becoming more tolerant.

Website Blush.

 

Eschatos Interview

A bit more than a year ago I did an interview with Latvian black metal band Eschatos. It was published on Alternative.lv and can be found here.

I loved the sound of this band and their genuinely intellectual approach to the genre. This is the unedited version that I received, giving you the raw insights into this band, which I hope to see in action some day. Reading this interview again also gives me some insigths into my own journey. I really was not sure about the stance I was supposed to take, so rather than being inquisitive I might have seemed boastful to the band. Lessons to be learned I suppose.

What remains is my admiration for this band, who make amazing music and have received raving reviews from pretty much anywhere

What can you tell more about how you guys got together and formedup a black metal band by the name of Eschatos? What have you guysplayed in before apart from Grondh and Ocularis Infernum?

Jānis: The formation of Eschatos was a natural outcome of things. We all knew each other, we knew what we wanted to achieve and what to expect from one another.
If we talk about other bands, Edvards is playing in a prog/death metal band „Opifex”, I – Jānis, Edgars and Edvards played together in another black metal band, called „Velna Krusti”, back in the days.

Did you have other names in mind as well? What does the word
Eschatos mean for you guys?

J: The name symbolizes many things for us. It’s the end of something and life after death. It is also the highest point. It came to us pretty naturally. Before that we did briefly pass some other names, but when „Eschatos” rose up, it cleared all the doubts.

Source: Eschatos Facebook with kind permission
Source: Eschatos Facebook with kind permission

What do you guys do in daily life?

J: I earn my daily hunk of bread by working as a graphic designer. It’s one of the things I don’t dislike a great deal amongst the rest useless shit.

Kristiāna: There are a very few things I do not.
I am studding theory of art, designing, taking pictures, painting, making movies, organizing exhibitions, etc.

Edgars is studying Theory of Culture.

Edvards: Most of my time is occupied with Social Anthropology studies, but I somehow always find myself to be immersed in a vast variety of things, ranging from playing music to doing graphic design, video or audio editing, building something, and learning every new thing that I come across.

I find it interesting that you call black metal music Art, can you
elaborate on that? Do you approach it as making art in the sense of
creating something with beauty? (I’m asking this, because early black
metal musicians and many purists still heavily oppose the term art)

J: Art is not necessarily associated with beauty. Although that which is ugly and rotten to one, is beautiful to another. Art is a product of creativity and imagination that triggers an experience. We use the term to describe the passionate and majestic work of our creation.
For me black metal has always been a really deep form of art. I can understand, that some people don’t understand, how destruction can be labeled as creation, but you do create it, right?

K: Considering the fact that the essence of art is still in discussion among art critics and theoreticians, especially due to the strong conceptual tendencies in visual art emerged on the other half of 20th century, I will not argue the nature of it. There is one thing I can say for sure, in “Eschatos’s” case music as art presents itself as combined spiritual experience resulting in a birth of entity of autonomous existence – music.

Is Art something outside of the personal, a product or expression
if you will, or is it a part of life as you lead it?

J: Art is always personal. It’s the expression and reflection of the artist. A little piece of the artist’s soul, if I may say so.

K: I would supplement that the true art always involves personal perspective whether it is a painting, sculpture, symphony or a black metal composition for that matter. Art is the only way to travel to whatever layers of consciousness you can endure.

What are your main inspirations, musically and otherwise?

J: It is hard to emphasize specific things, because there are so many things that inspire me. Mostly it is not music that lights something in me that I strive to manifest in our creations. These are experiences from meditations, visions and vivid emotional bursts I’ve had.
Musically, there is a broad variety of genres, that I listen to, starting from black metal, to experimental, progressive, classical, ambient and even some indie music, to name a few. What I do search for in music is strong atmosphere and artistic and ideological background, because without that the music is empty. I really admire the Swedish and French black metal scenes of nowadays. They kind of have these profoundly dedicated scenes with so many good bands, but, as I said before, many things inspire me, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.

It’s probably a lame question, but how’s having a female vocalist
working out in a scene that is pretty much from its start been devoid of women?

K: I believe this question was not meant for me, but I will answer it anyway. At first, I think that women in black metal are not something entirely new. There are bands like “Darkestrah”, “Astarte”, and “Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult”, etc., but unfortunately none of these bands are amongst my favorites.
Secondly, I cannot start to explain the insignificance of gender when it comes to musical abilities, talent, if you will.

So, about the Latvian black metal scene. How is that, are there
many bands that play black metal and does it have some typical sound or own identity to it? 

J: There is no Latvian black metal scene. You can count the active bands on the fingers of one hand, if you skip all the bedroom projects. There have been many bands that come and go without leaving much legacy.
Skyforger is a great band, but they haven’t got much black in their metal anymore. Dark Domination are the sole survivors of Latvian black metal, as they are the only band that has lasted so long. Urskumug is a notable act, also I want to believe, that Ocularis Infernum and Grondh have left a mark of influence on the scene. The rest, for me at least, are just dust in the wind.
If you try to find parallels in the sound, I guess you can stumble upon few bands, that had something in common, but not enough to talk about typical local sound.

Can you give me an overview of how black metal came to Latvia and what developed there?

J: I think, that black metal is still „coming in”. Of course, we have our history that started in mid 90’s but I don’t feel that black metal in Latvia has strong foundation and dedicated scene.

Is the Latvian metal scene tight knit or divided into the different genres?

J: I would say, that it is pretty divided, with emphasis on some genres like death metal and alternative metal, where the last one is like a completely different scene. I’m glad that the last years have brought more tolerance and appreciation for more experimental and unorthodox music in the metal scene.

Edvards: I would like to add that the whole scene thing, while being much divided, maintains certain interaction, due to the fact that almost every metalhead plays some kind of an instrument and is usually involved in a number of different projects. There is a saying in Latvia that “where there are two guys – there are three bands”, or something like that. Everyone seems to know everyone. And in concerts, the genres are usually very inadequately mixed together, which results in the mixing up of the sub-scene representatives attending those concerts.

Source: Eschatos Facebook with kind permission
Source: Eschatos Facebook with kind permission

Black metal has been associated with Satanism, white supremacy but also paganism ideals. I’ve noticed that Grondh for example also
mentions Satanist philosophy as one of their ideals. Do you feel
confined by the overall black metal culture and the strict
anti-attitude towards what is conventional and what do you consider to be the views that Eschatos represents?

K: As unconventional as it may seem there are no such boundaries to our art as traditional black metal ideals – Satanism, racism, paganism or any other “ism” for that matter.
At this point I believe black metal has grown to be more of a unifying phenomenon than restrictive bridle.
It is not our purpose to express absolute ideas. Our art is quite autotelic, but surely – one who is willing to listen, will find one’s own truths as well as ours.

Edvards: In a way, the black metal culture with its ideals can also be seen as the conventional black metal culture, which seems to be in contradiction with the anti-attitude towards the conventional. I do not believe it is wise to present our attitude through some already given instructions/manuals, like the above mentioned “-isms”, because it is often the case that those ideals become in themselves the main point, and not what they represent or were used for in the first place.

Where from do you get lyrical inspiration?

K: I have always believed that in art only pain, suffering and loss can awaken the true genius. For me to write, a strong trigger is required, and the last year has been just that. Of course, amongst the sources of my inspiration there are literature, philosophy, visual art, music and after all – a human being, concealing such a great variety of different self-destructive passions.

What is a show of Eschatos live, what do you try to give people
and let them take home from a live performance? Do you prefer to
record or to play live?

K: I can say for sure that those are both completely different experiences and both – vital. Record gives the advantage of perfectionism when one is needed. Live performance appeals to all the other senses. For me it is hard to comment on the last one due to the fact that during performance the bound with reality is quite loose.

Edvards: I do not prefer any one thing over the other. When we play music it is almost as a spiritual experience, and during live shows we provide the opportunity for others to immerse in it. That is a difficult thing to capture in a recording, but nevertheless it is an inspiring and a very creative activity, which provides many new insights and ideas.

What do you hope to achieve in the next few years as a band?

K: We have already achieved the only thing that truly matters – we create.

Header photo: Aivars Ivbulis

Fat White Family @ Area51

It’s time to get down and dirty in Area51 with the most dangerous band of the moment: The Fat White Family. It’s been quiet in the skatecenter for a while, but music is being made in their refurnished concert hall.

The place was suffering from a lack of isolation for the sound, but that seems to be fixed with this new solution. Luckily, the grimy atmosphere is still there. Walking past the railing, visitors can see kids skate untill they face a black curtain, behind which the magic happens.

Fat White Family getting it on.
Fat White Family getting it on.

Todays show is one by the Gruismeel club, who’ve been putting up awesome psych shows in Eindhoven for a while now. One of their great talents seem to be to find the exact right location for shows.

Warming up is the band The Voyeurs, who capture they eye mainly due to their almost identical guitar players on the stage. Inspiration seems to come from the early garage scene of the artsy seventies and a bit of Iggy Pop. That results in a hazy sort of psych rock, where you can casually drift along with. The turtleneck sweaters are very noticable.

They calm sound of the five from London makes the a good warm-up for what is to come. Interesting is the fact that the band has roots in the middle-east, which might be detectable in their hypnotic sound. There’s something about this band that is captivating, but I find I cannot grasp it fully.

In between the set, DJ ONONiiONIONIION is playing a maddening mixture of what seems to be Eastern folk music, dance beats and Bollywood blitz. Though confusing some visitors, it is a detail to the night that creates a rather fun atmosphere. Better than to drown the crowd in fuzzed out psych, it opens up the bouquet of the bands a bit by letting it breathe.

Properly dressed still
Properly dressed still

Fat White Family has become notorious for their live act. There’s something fatalistic in their whole swagger. Frontman Lias Saudi makes you feel drunk or stoned (or both) by just the way he holds himself. The band needs no words and lunges into a set full of jangling punky tracks, mainly from their debut album ‘Champagne Holocaust’.

Wether you find them ridiculous or outrageous, there’s a strenght to this band and a conviction to simply not give a flying fuck about anything. Saudi soon has his t-shirt of, jumping into the crowd, shrieking and franticly dancing. In fact, I think he’d do the exact same thing if no one had turned up. The pants stay on however, which makes this an occasion where one can actually take a look at the rest of the band.

It’s that empty gaze of doom of guitar player Saul Adamczewski (formerly of The Metros)  that seems to embody the futility of it all that can be felt through songs like ‘I Am Mark E. Smith’, which is one that gets the crowd going. The band just throws itself at one song after another, of which the perverted tones of ‘Touch The Leather’ seems to be the peak of the set.

The band doesn’t last an hour, but that’s ok. Instead of making you think you had enough, they leave you hungry. That feels about right with these guys.